Podcast

#378 - GET UNSTUCK with Dr Emily Musgrove

Welcome back - to a brilliant episode.

Today we’re joined by the wonderful Dr. Emily Musgrove, clinical psychologist, co-host of The Imperfects podcast, and author of Unstuck: A Guide to Finding Your Way Forward to the Life You Want to Live.

Listen in as we explore practical tools to help you break free from whatever might be holding you back, and reconnect with dreams you might have put on pause. 

It's an episode that speaks to us exactly where we are - and it just might spark something new in your life.

Listen in and discover how embracing imperfection, compassion, and mindful actions will propel you toward your dream life.

As always, I’d LOVE to hear what resonates with you from this episode and what you plan to implement after listening in. So please share and let’s keep the conversation going in the Dream Life Podcast Facebook Group here.    

Have a wonderful week 💛

Dream Life & kikki.K Founder

SHOW NOTES:

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TRANSCRIPT:

Kristina: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] Hi there, and welcome back to another episode of Your Dream Live podcast. I'm Kristina Karlsson, and as always, I am so grateful you are here. If you ever felt stuck emotionally, mentally, or or just in life in general, then then today's episode is for you whether you are quietly wondering, is this it or loudly craving change, but not sure where to begin.

Take a deep breath. You are not alone.

Today I'm joined by the incredible [00:02:00] Dr. Emily Musgrove, clinical psychologist, co-host of the Imperfect Podcast, and now author of the truly powerful new book Unstuck. A Guide to Finding Your Way Forward To the Life You Want to Live. This conversation is all about real life tools to help you move through whatever is holding you back and reconnect with the dreams you might have put on pause.

We are talking about fear, burnout, purpose, and how to navigate change not perfectly, but with courage and self compassion. I know this episode will meet you exactly where you are today, and I hope it sparks something new for you. Emily's new book Unstuck is our September book for my book Club Grow.

We will read it, we will discuss it, and we'll implement Whatever is relevant for each of us. If you want to join us, just head over [00:03:00] to your dream life starts here.com. I will link to it in the show note as well. So grab a cup of tea, find a quiet spot, or take us with you on your walk and let's dive right in.

 Hi Emily and welcome to my podcast.

I am so excited.

[00:03:25] Emily: Oh, thank you so much for having me, Christine. It's a real thrill to be here.

[00:03:29] Kristina: Oh, it's so good. I absolutely loved your book so much that we are going to, uh, read it in my book Club Grow. But before we get into talking about your book, I want to ask you a question. Did you have a dream as a child, something you wanted to do or have or become?

[00:03:50] Emily: That's such a good question. If you asked my parents I wanted to be a zookeeper, which you know, is obviously not in my wheelhouse in any way now.

[00:03:59] Kristina: [00:04:00] Did you

[00:04:00] Emily: so that's definitely not happened and I'm not actually very good with animals, so that was never gonna happen. did I have a dream?

I. Like if I was to look back at when I was finishing high school, around kind of like that 17, 18-year-old me, there very much was a dream to be a psychologist. And I know that sounds kind of strange, but I think it has always been a deep fascination to me, you know, why we are what we are, why we do what we do and that.

To combine that with this possibility of working with someone in healing and growing and changing. It has always just felt like such such an immense privilege. And so it's a strange thing to say, but it was, it, it was my dream to be a psychologist and it still, it still really continues to be that I think.

[00:04:48] Kristina: Yeah, fantastic. the work that you've done to become a psychologist. I feel like that's such a, an incredible foundation to develop to whatever you want after that because I think you, you [00:05:00] know so much about us humans now that you can actually go anywhere and That's I think, so exciting.

My daughter actually wants to be a child psychologist and she's only 14, so who knows if she'll do it, but I love that she's interested in that.

[00:05:14] Emily: Oh, absolutely. It is. It's, it's endlessly, endlessly fascinating. Really?

[00:05:19] Kristina: Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah, I have been very interested If I, if I ever had time, uh, I mean, we all have time if I ever prioritize it. I love to study, go deeper, but I read so many books and I feel like that's, that's kind of enough for what I need. But I, I always loved personal growth, personal development, always asking why am I, you know, my goal every year, or my dream every year is to become.

The next best version on myself. So I never want to kind of just stay where I am. I always wanna challenge myself and grow. And out of all the, uh, uncomfortable things that I do, starting podcast.

[00:05:54] Emily: yeah. Absolutely.

that is so wonderful. It also reminds me very much of this [00:06:00] notion of, you know, like connection to our values there and the fact that, you know, for example, being a psychologist is one pathway. But it's not the only pathway to connect. To what feels really meaningful to you.

So, you know, even in what you're saying in there, Kristina, that maybe if, you know, if there was more time or prioritized time, maybe that's something that you would've pursued, but I think you're pursuing it just in another way. know, just by engagement in like the self-growth and the reading of the books.

I mean, it's accessible to us all, all the time if we want it to be.

[00:06:29] Kristina: Yeah.

absolutely. And I'm always learning, like I, I was um, cause yesterday I did, so I ordered so many new books and uh, I have an online book club and so obviously it's in my interest to always read what's coming up. But it's basically, and we're gonna talk about value soon, like. personal growth is one of my highest values, I live it and I breathe it.

And I've had such amazing mornings reading your book because what I do is I do my meditation and my journaling and walking, and then I, I, forward to my coffee so much every day, every [00:07:00] morning. So then I have had my coffee and your book, and I was just like, this and this.

[00:07:08] Emily: That's so nice. That's, yeah, it blows my mind that that, that it's sitting in the hands of people in their morning routines, for example. That's amazing.

[00:07:16] Kristina: Yeah. No, that's so good. Okay, so we have listeners from all over the world, so I'd like for you to maybe just share a little bit about your journey and then we're gonna get stuck into talking about your

book. Yeah.

[00:07:28] Emily: Well I have been practicing as a psychologist for. Over 14 years. And so I have had an, like a number of different experiences and different roles across that time, obviously. But primarily now my, like, my main role is as a sole trader um, with a clinical practice. Um, like my, like my main work really is, is being with and sitting with my clients um, which really is like four to five days a week.

So that's like my main core business. and it's what really drives, I think, everything [00:08:00] else.

[00:08:00] Kristina: Yeah.

And what made you want to write the book?

[00:08:04] Emily: Well, it's interesting. So I, I was invited to, which was just such, like, such an honor and I, and it was not, Part of my life plan. But I am such a lover of books and, you know, if I could choose one place to be. On a cold day, it would be in a bookstore or in a library. they fill my heart with joy.

This notion of like being in a room filled with all these words and all of these experiences and history, it, it actually makes me feel, uh, very joyful. And so the idea of being part of that felt um, meaningful. But I think beyond that, and probably most importantly you know, I'm just so aware that accessing support and help is really tricky and can be not only cost prohibitive, but the capacity to actually access it is prohibitive at times.

Um. And finding the right person can be hard. So my hope was that, [00:09:00] that this book could act like a bit of a bridge between being on your own then having your own therapist. So it is not, uh, your therapist, it's not like being in therapy, but it's kind of like a bridge to that to offer some support and guidance.

[00:09:15] Kristina: Yeah. Yeah, I absolutely love that. And you know what I find so fascinating and actually yesterday I was, someone commented on my LinkedIn, I wanna share it because, and, and I haven't read this book yet, but I'll absolutely love the title. And I think you might have read this book, but lemme it's called, what you Are looking for is in the Library. Have you heard of that book?

[00:09:37] Emily: No, and I love that title also. That's great.

[00:09:40] Kristina: And, and so it's by a Japanese person. I'm, I'm not sure if I can even say, I'll link to it in the show notes, but, but this was a person that just come, 'cause I was just asking. People on LinkedIn if they had a book that had a big impact or could even be a life changing. And [00:10:00] he recommended this book and I never heard of it.

And I loved that title because I loved your book and I probably wouldn't be your patient because that's not what I feel like I need right now, but doesn't mean that I don't benefit from all the things that you can. Share with me. So I think books are the best way of trying different things and see if you want to go deeper in any, like in business, but also psychology and fitness and exercise and health.

Health and wellbeing. Like that's just so endless. And what I find so amazing is that someone has dedicated their life work and sharing all that knowledge and you can buy it for, you know, 20, $30, whatever It is for a book. And it's, I find that is just

unbelievable.

[00:10:43] Emily: It is unbelievable. And it's such, you know, it's such an invitation, there's so much choice, obviously, in. What you read and also how you read it. And so the invitation is there. I think if you want it, you know, if you want to really dive deeper into your own reflections in whatever book you're choosing, whatever [00:11:00] book you're reading um, invitation's always there.

[00:11:02] Kristina: Yeah. Yeah. absolutely. Love that. So, so I'm gonna start because there's so much to unpack and I've highlighted almost the entire book. Uh, but I wanna start with chapter one and you are not broken. I just love this. I have worked with a wide range of mental health issues. This is obviously you saying this at the foundation of the stories I have heard is a certain experience that, of being stuck.

I love for you to just, a little bit about that because obviously that's what the book is all about.

[00:11:34] Emily: Yeah, it is. So, you know, when I was thinking about, you know, writing this, this book, obviously at the core of what I wanted to get across was this idea that we are not broken. Because I think so often, you know, people, when people experience struggle and pain and difficulty so often, what accompanies that is this sense that I am broken, that there's something wrong with me um, I've, I've failed in some way that this isn't good enough.

And [00:12:00] really actually, if we look at that, this idea of being broken brings with it such a sense of helplessness that I am in need of being fixed. That someone else needs to do that for me, that I, I can't do it. that I'll be waiting for the conditions to happen for something to fix me. And so I think in many ways when we hold tightly to that belief, it can leave us feeling even more stuck, uh, in more struggle.

And what I have, you know, certainly observed, you know, over the years and also consistent with the therapeutic approach that I use, is that actually. There is nothing broken about you. There is nothing wrong with you having these feelings because pain and struggle is a natural part and, and an inevitable part of being human.

What is here is that you're stuck in the struggle with it. So you're stuck in the pain. what feels so important and empowering about stuckness is that if we are willing, it can be [00:13:00] temporary. And so we can see that when something is temporary, there is a sense of hopefulness and the possibility of being able to move forward with or without this pain.

[00:13:10] Kristina: Absolutely love that. So. Can we just talk a little bit about pain? Because it's a human nature to avoid pain, and I think we all can relate to that, whatever, in whatever area. But I love what you just said, that not who we are, it's just something that we feel. So how for anyone who's listening and feel.

Stuck at the moment and feel the pain. And that could be for all sorts of different reasons, obviously, but what are a couple of things that they can do to, to move forward?

[00:13:41] Emily: Yeah. Well, I think the first and most obvious one is that we have to recognize we're stuck. so stuckness often like exhibits itself by being kind of on autopilot. So kind of got like this idea of. Not always, but this, this idea of kind of going through the motions, and almost like letting our thoughts and feelings drive our [00:14:00] experience.

So our thoughts and feelings drive our choices of behavior. So the very first step is to, you know, to cultivate some kind of practice that allows you to notice I, I'm stuck. And so for me, for example, that would be, you know, a practice akin to mindfulness meditation. it doesn't have to be.

Meditation, but in, my mind, it needs to be something that allows you to slow down and to notice,

[00:14:27] Kristina: Yeah.

[00:14:27] Emily: To step off of that automatic pilot that so frequently, uh, pushes us towards avoidance. So that notion of like, uh, when discomfort is here, I'll scroll on my phone. When discomfort is here, I will eat or I will drink, or I will online shop or gamble.

So when this discomfort is here, instead of us being able to slow down and, really attend to it, actually what happens is that we move into actions that take us away from the pain, but typically will then cause more, more suffering. [00:15:00] that would be the first part for me is like really noticing and observing.

Okay, this is here right now.

[00:15:05] Kristina: I am all for mindfulness as well. But I often hear, so I wanna address this for the listeners, that some people say that they are really struggling with mindfulness or they don't know how to do meditation, and I feel like they, they with such a high expectation to be completely, you know, a monk that is probably not necessary.

But for anyone who. Who think maybe they have too active mind or they don't really feel like, have you got some ideas on what those people can do

[00:15:32] Emily: Yes, absolutely. So first of all, I think we have to come in with some, like an understanding of the expectations of meditation for, begin with, and that is that there actually, the intention is not to clear the mind or to slow the mind or to create relaxation. This may feel like an immense contradiction to what we hear about in meditation, but really what we're looking at is with meditation, it's actually more about attentional training.

So this capacity to be able [00:16:00] to tune in and attune to our internal experience. So for example, when we practice meditation and we slow down and we notice, we may become very aware that our mind is really busy. That is okay. Or we may notice when we slow down that here is sadness or here is anxiety equally, this is okay.

But what that's doing is offering us information. And what we also bring with that is at what's called a non-judgmental um, So we notice and we don't judge what's here. And that really what we're looking at there is this idea that, you know, the practice of mindfulness meditation is really akin to going to the gym and strengthening a muscle.

We are strengthening our, our capacity to attend to information. So it's actually very different from creating relaxation or clearing the mind, having clarity not about that. This is really about our ability to tune in. So when we tune in, we actually give ourselves more choice and more [00:17:00] opportunity.

[00:17:00] Kristina: yeah. And that space to think too, one of the practices that I've started maybe a couple of years ago now, but it's something I look forward to every single day. And that is, as mentioned before, I love my coffee. So I have a little bit of practices first before I have my coffee. And then um, I do any reading or anything like that.

Learning 'cause that's kind of what, but you know, that's probably my thing that I go to when I want to. I would just wanna read and more information walking with podcasts, all those kind of things. I actually sit with my coffee for five minutes doing nothing. So no phone, no journal, no books. Nothing and just in silence.

So this is after the kids just got to to school. So the house is empty, it's quiet and it's my favorite part of the day. It's only five minutes, so it doesn't feel like it's a long time, but when you actually are so used to. Doing so many things and sometimes at the same time, it feels like it's forever, but it's at the same time.

It feels like it goes really fast, but it just makes [00:18:00] you so aware and it just makes me tune in for the day and really hopefully stop that kind of autopilot. Not always, of course, but that's one of my favorite

[00:18:08] Emily: I think that's wonderful. I mean, we, we, I'm sure you know, many people talk about this in many different ways, but this sense of feeling overstimulated being overstimulated and distracted, disconnected, it's, it's a real core, uh, sustaining factor to poor mental health. Um, and so like if you were to pause, for example and just do one thing, a number of things can happen.

For some people that will feel very calming. For other people that will feel agitating and that is also okay. So it's kind of this practice of being able to notice and notice the urge to reach for the phone or to notice the urge to read something or to watch something and go, ah, that's curious.

What's this about? Can I just take a breath, feel my feet on the ground and come back to the breath, for example? So, you know, really wanna, I guess, emphasize that there is no right outcome. [00:19:00] we're not trying to attain anything in particular other than um, bringing a gentle awareness to our experience.

[00:19:06] Kristina: Yeah. Yeah.

I absolutely love it. And I, and it's such a difficult one to do because we are so attached to our phones, me included. and I, I often look at, 'cause I just moved to Sydney a few months ago, and, I take the ferry. So this morning I was doing a mental walk and um, I took the ferry and it's so tempting to, uh, do, it's about 20 minutes into town and it's so tempting to be on my phone and sometimes I am because I might need to do some work on the way or preparing something, but I try.

So hard to really all look around. 'cause I never take, I never wanna take this for granted 'cause it was a, a dream that I worked on for years and years and years and I never thought I was gonna make it happen. And then when you start noticing when you sit there with no phone and no book or no journal, then I really start noticing how everyone is just on the phone and you know, for reasons.

Sometimes you use your. commute for, filling [00:20:00] that for work so you can have more time with your kids. So, so there's no judgment here. It's more just how easy it is to go to, and I know it myself, like if I, if I'm waiting for five minutes when my daughter is coming out Of school, reach for the phone.

It's just automatic.

[00:20:14] Emily: Of course. It is automatic. It really is.

[00:20:17] Kristina: Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's no wonder with, uh, all our children out there, because I feel like that's just, I often love hearing when our kid says that they're bored because I'm like, you know, we don't really feel that a lot

these days.

[00:20:31] Emily: you're right.

[00:20:32] Kristina: Yeah.

Yeah. So, you talk about in the book, about psychological flexibility.

Can you explain for everyone what that is?

[00:20:40] Emily: Yeah, well, I guess, you know, really, I, I liken it to, physical flexibility. So, you know, if you imagine that you have more physical flexibility, you can move with more ease. So you can kind of navigate your environment with a little bit more ease. You're gonna be less stiff, you're gonna be able to reach further.

You're going to be able to exercise without [00:21:00] injury. And whereas if we have, if we are very stiff and inflexible, we are going to be more prone to injury, for example. We're gonna be having restricted or limited movements. Um, same thing can be said in terms of our capacity for psychological flexibility.

So psychological flexibility really is around, being able to tune into our experience to be able to step back and create like an openness and a spacious awareness. So it really means this capacity to think from, uh, a different lens um, that our experience is not driven just by one exclusive, narrow perspective, for example.

So a big part of it is this capacity for perspective taking, not just on in terms of other people, but also perspective taking in terms of our own internal experience as well.

[00:21:52] Kristina: I love that. I also love how you, uh, the foundation of your book is based on acceptance and commitment therapy. And I want [00:22:00] you to, explain that as a little bit as well. But I read that, I was so excited 'cause I read a lot around that because I feel like that's such a.

Positive way of coming from. and you know, we hear, we hear about toxic positivity and things like that, but I often feel like and you know, when people are going through challenge and time, that's not an easy thing to do. But I find eventually your, your challenge has become a gift.

So for me, that was losing my business and that was. Awful and hard. And now, like I was talking about it this morning 'cause I was out walking with two mentees and I'm just thinking now, like, I'm so grateful for everything that I've gone through because there's much more I can share. But also now I, I am back in control and I am now going to create the life that is because our business became so big, And I didn't want, I, I mean I wanted that, that was me driving it. Just so, but so you be, have to be careful what you wish for. But saying that I now love having a small team. I don't sit in any meetings [00:23:00] anymore. All those kind of things that become a positive thing once you go through all the hardships.

So I love how your book was the foundation on that kind of look on life, but maybe you can explain that

in a much better way than I can.

[00:23:12] Emily: no, I think that's a really beautiful story and a great example. You know, an ACT approach, and we use the acronym ACT there to describe acceptance and commitment therapy. it's inherently optimistic, so it holds a very optimistic view of human ability and capacity and human living. And so from that point, it doesn't, uh.

Possess or hold what's called like a pathological view of mental health. And that means that, uh, we are not looking at, getting rid of negative, so to speak, symptoms. We are looking at working with what's here and cultivating a life that's worth living. And so one of the key, uh, processes and foundations in ACT is.

Is really holding values in mind a lot because it's in connection to our values, uh, that we [00:24:00] have really kind of like a compass for heading us in the direction that we want our life to be. And so in that way it's different from looking at symptoms and different from eradicating, dysfunction or distress.

It's really around optimizing. In the presence of, and in the absence of pain as well.

[00:24:23] Kristina: Yeah.

Yeah.

I absolutely love it. So let's talk about values, because I think my life completely changed when I was really focusing on values, because I think a lot of us once before we understand what values really means, is that we, we think about those. You know, aspirational values like honesty, authenticity, all those kind of things, that for me is like, That's kind of the ground anyway.

But really for me, values is like, what do I really value and how do I wanna spend my time and my money and my attention? Uh, and once I did that, I got rid of, I think this is [00:25:00] particular useful for mothers who often have the guilt of, you know, if they're passionate about their work, but then they also passionate about their family and then.

There's so many things we wanna do at the same time, uh, which is not easy. But knowing once I did all my work through, my values, I, I stopped having the guilt and also I was really clear on what to say yes. And most importantly, not to say no to.

[00:25:26] Emily: Yeah. That's so great. And I think that that is. Sometimes something that we need to, to check in with at different points in our life. You know, where are we, you know, where are we heading, what's important? What gives us meaning? And almost like to recalibrate or re like kind of get back on track.

So the way that I like to think about values, and this is certainly consistent with All the theories around ACT and, and a lot of the um, incredible academics and researchers that bring this to life in some ways is values are like heading in a direction. So it's like heading west now.

We [00:26:00] will never reach west. It is an ongoing direction. that's the same as our values. So for example if we had a value around being creative, um. it's an ongoing quality of behavior rather than something that we tick off. So we might be able to say yes, I've created this journal, for example, and that might be a goal that is in service of the value of being creative.

[00:26:23] Kristina: Yeah.

[00:26:24] Emily: just because we've ticked that one thing off doesn't mean that we now rest and sit back and say, well, I've done creativity. It is actually an ongoing direction and it's this kind of guiding force and it offers us you know, very much like this kind of lighthouse in a storm. even when there is a lot of struggle here, how do I check in with what's most important to me?

How is it that I wanna show up in this one life that we get?

[00:26:49] Kristina: Yeah.

Yeah. I absolutely love it. So, for anyone's who is listening and not sure about their values, well, how would you go? Because I, I mean, I'm gonna link to this book and I'm hoping that everyone will [00:27:00] listen, listen to this book, will get your book because I think it's so amazing. But for anyone who'd like to get on with it straight away, what, kind of work is required to find out

[00:27:09] Emily: Yeah. You know, look, I think that there isn't one, one way to do it. There are actually kind of a multitude of ways in which we can uncover this. Starting very basically, and I have this in my book, there is an adapted version of Dr. Russ Harris, who is an act um, researcher and um, therapist and practitioner as well.

He has a questionnaire that he developed to identify. Our values. And so I think that can be a really great starting point. And so that questionnaire can give you a sense as to what you know, what values are, what they can be, and what you identify most strongly with or what feels most important to you.

So that's kind of one way in which we can uncover or get started in that process. There are a number of other ways, one of the most, probably one of the most popular ways, that you may have heard about is some reflective questions that ask you, for example, [00:28:00] to imagine a milestone event. And so the one I think that I use in the book is what's called the 80th birthday milestone exercise.

And that is an invitation for you to imagine being 80, uh, and having a birthday party, and that in this particular exercise. Or in this image that you hold everyone that you love or even that you imagine that you love are at this event. And that at some point during the event two to three people get up to say something about you and they say, or they talk about how is it that you've shown up in your life, what it is that you have meant to them.

And so often this will give us a clue. So what is it that you'd most like people to say about you? What is it that you would like most people to have believed about you, felt about you seen you? And so this is very much less around achievements, very much less around, [00:29:00] you know, well, you know, Emily sold this number of books or, were the CEO of the blah blah.

know, it's not about that, but the kind of person. You wanna be? So how is it that you've shown up? What is the quality of behavior with which you've lived this life? Now, what often happens when we do an exercise like that is that it will bring up a whole host of, of feelings. Often one of them can be grief or disappointment, or criticism, anger, because I'm not living in accordance with that value.

But that doesn't mean that it's less important to you. It just means that there's a gap between where you are now and where you wanna be.

[00:29:38] Kristina: Yeah, I absolutely love that. And so for anyone who's listening who now feel like the gap is there, what's the first kind of actions do you feel like people can take?

[00:29:47] Emily: Yeah, yeah. Well certainly naming naming my Values, so getting clear on that as a really good start. And yes, we can bring in some mindfulness meditation to assist with that. One of the biggest barriers, well probably the main barrier [00:30:00] to values led action really is, uh, discomfort and pain. So strong emotions, lots of, internal dialogue.

So a simple example might be. Let's just say you have a deadline for a project, and this project is important to you and it's kind of on track with what you value. So it might be in support of a value maybe around perseverance or a value around productivity, for example, just hypothetically. Um, what will get in the way will be.

The discomfort of having to do the action. And so you might have thoughts like, oh, I can't be bothered. This feels really hard. I don't really feel like doing this. I've got better things to do. Maybe the thought of doing it brings up feelings of anxiety in the body, so we notice like a tighten chest or a feeling of sickness in the stomach.

So when we get like this, uh, emerging sense of discomfort, what will often show up at that point. Obviously is an urge to avoid it. And so we will, for example, procrastinate and put off the task to another [00:31:00] day. Now, in the short term, that works very effectively. We often feel a sense of relief, but often not that long thereafter, we will.

For example, realize now that I have less time to do the project. So now I'm feeling more stressed and more anxious. My inner critic has more to say about why I didn't do it yesterday. And now we have a lot more struggle and a lot more pain. So the main barriers to uh, acting in accordance with our values really are this urge to withdraw and avoid, and also the stories that our minds come up with.

So that internal dialogue, otherwise kind of known as that inner critic, they're the two kind of barriers. So we need to work with, in essence, we need to learn how to work with our feelings and with our mind.

[00:31:44] Kristina: Yeah, I absolutely love that. And so I love that. However,

[00:31:48] Emily: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:49] Kristina: so I'm very good at procrastinating as well, and something that I, but I actually, I'm getting better. Not absolutely not perfect, but I'm getting better at recognizing it, which I think is the, you know, as you said, it's all about [00:32:00] awareness, but I think sometimes we get stuck in our mind so how do we, how do we go from.

Stuck in your mind to actually take that action?

[00:32:09] Emily: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, I've got a whole chapter really on working with the mind and you know, part of this can feel, complex, but part of it can be simple in some ways. And so to start with, what we, what we are kind of learning to recognize is that our thoughts. This is gonna sound strange, but our thoughts are simply mental events.

So, uh, they are words that are passing through the mind, and some of them we pay a lot of attention to, and some of them we don't pay any attention to. And so the question that we have is, what happens if I pay a lot of attention to this one thought? Like let's say the thought that I can't do this. So if I grip tightly to that thought, does that bring me closer to my values or does it take me further away?

And usually pretty. Readily. We will recognize that when I grip really tightly to this, it's like it's in an iron grip almost [00:33:00] that it's harder for me to take action. So we might do something like, you know, one of the processes that I talk about in the book is what's called cognitive diffusion, and it's this idea that we are separating the person from the thought.

So I'm not my thoughts, basically are just thoughts that are passing through the mind, and I can let them come and go with some practice and with certain skills that we would use. And so a very, very simple and very commonly used practice in acceptance and commitment therapy is the the practice of, noticing and naming the thought.

So if I said to you, Kristina, uh, like, I, I can't do this. And when I hold that, that's gonna bring a whole lot of feelings in the body sensations. Uh, it's gonna bring with it probably a feeling of overwhelm or anxiety. But if I say to you, Kristina, I'm noticing I'm having the thought that I can't do this, I start to notice there's a bit of a difference there.

Do, do you get that sense?

[00:33:58] Kristina: Yeah.

[00:33:59] Emily: Yeah. [00:34:00] Yeah. So the phrase is, I'm noticing, I'm having the thought that.dot. And what we are doing there, like you'll see we're not changing the, the thought, but we're changing our relationship to it so that we are giving ourselves some space between me and the thought I'm having.

And in that space we can choose then how we wanna respond. So I can say, I'm noticing I'm having the thought that I can't do this, and then it might be another question. Okay, so what? What would help me right now? What would help me right now? Maybe it's that I need to take a few breaths maybe that I bring online, some like internal encouragement, not moving down the toxic positivity end of the spectrum, but just, you know, Emily, like, yes, I get this feels hard.

I know you've done this before though. What would help you do this? What do you need right now? So it might be this next question of like, okay, maybe we need to go for a walk. Maybe we need to be outside. Maybe we need to have something to drink or something to eat. What is gonna resource me so that I can [00:35:00] still have this thought, but it's not gonna drive my choices of behavior here.

[00:35:03] Kristina: I love, love, love that. And that brings me to question about action, and you have chapter.

There is a great quote by Robert Frost that you have in the book. The only way is through and I'd love for you to talk about why that's so important, but I wanna share when I lost my business, it was like, I just felt like it was never ending. It was just, and it was COVID, it was lots of, you know, it was administrations never fun.

And and it was just, I felt like it was. Never ending. And then someone gave me two quotes to think about. One was a Winston Churchill quote. I'm not so sure if I'm saying it exactly right, 'cause I don't have it in front of me, but it's like, when going through, hell keep going.

And that, that was like, yes, I'm, I'm gonna keep going and get through it. Similar to the Robert Frost. Quote. And the other thing that one. of my friends said that was so helpful to me at that time, and you know, sometimes you [00:36:00] can hear a million quotes and they don't resonate with at this particular time.

It was really important and that was, remember that it's darkest before Dawn. And that really helped me because I was like, I just felt like it couldn't get any darker in terms of, and I wasn't depressed or anything, but I was just felt like it was just hard work and I just felt like there was just. Yeah, it was just a difficult time.

And then when he said that, I was like, all right, well hopefully you can't get any dark and you dunno that of course. But after I'm, I'm kind of really grateful for those quotes. So let's talk about how important it's to get through it and also

[00:36:34] Emily: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's, so that's, that's so powerful and really in my mind, it gets darker if we stay still,

you know? Really, like if we were to think about that, that, that. The inaction creates more suffering. and this is not, you know, this is not about gritting our teeth or like pushing through in avoidance, but more this notion that, so I bring some awareness [00:37:00] to the fact that this pain is here, but what is one thing, one, one next thing that I can do that would be on track with what I value?

And so, you know, there's an incredible uh, therapist and, academic Robin Waler in the States, and she has this beautiful kind of concept that we, we live life from the feet up and that means that we move first and then our head and our heart follow. Um, so often what will happen is that we will wait.

Wait for the perfect conditions to take the action. So I'll wait till I feel motivated. I'll wait till, I dunno, the kids leave home. I'll wait till the weather's better. I will wait till I don't feel so tired. the thing is that we have to take the action to create the feelings. Um, So even with difficult thoughts, feeling sensations that are here, I can still put on my gym clothes.

Maybe I only make it out the door. That action is still on track.

And so the next day maybe you make it to the end of the street and that's still on [00:38:00] track. So we're kind of gaining momentum bit by bit. It doesn't have to be like this big giant leap into, I dunno, you're gonna run a marathon today. No, this is just about like, how am I gonna show up today to this, this particular thing?

[00:38:14] Kristina: Yeah, I absolutely love it. And I was actually talking about that today when I went for my mentor walk, because one of the ladies, she said, yeah, but it feels like you're so confident. Because she was kind of looking at doing something completely different and I said, we are never confident when we start

something new, but the only way of becoming confident, obviously we can research it and we can read about it, we can educate ourselves, but it's not really,

and I, until you take the action and And I see this all the time because I think it's so easy for so many of us to look at people ahead of us and thinking that they have that naturally. And I'm like, most of us, you know, don't, and you just have to put this. And, and I, know, so many people said, oh, but you knew about business. Said I had No. idea about business.

And, uh, it's only because [00:39:00] I've been there for so long that people think that I was born with it, but I certainly wasn't. So I think that's a really, really good

[00:39:06] Emily: Yeah, we all start as novices.

[00:39:08] Kristina: Yeah.

[00:39:09] Emily: we all do at some point or another. that is uncomfortable and I do emphasize that, that there is discomfort when we do or start something. But that, I guess this is one of my main like messages, is that that discomfort is on track to what you value, so it's in service.

Of my values, it's in service of this meaningful life. So we don't wanna take discomfort as a bad sign. We actually, in, in a lot of circumstances, we say it as like, actually this is a good sign. This is telling me that it's important.

[00:39:37] Kristina: yeah. And there's a, there's a quote that I probably, for anyone who's listening frequently to this podcast, must be so of me saying this. But there's a quote that I repeat often to myself and to others, and that is, you a Zig Ziglar quote.

You don't have to be great to start, but you have to start to be great. And if you, if you have That philosophy, everything, and I, look at that often because exercise for me is like, you know, [00:40:00] walking, I can do. All day long, but if I have to go for a run or go to the gym, it's like, that is not as exciting.

So then I was like, well, I'm gonna use this. You don't have to, you don't have to be great to start, but you have to start

to be great. So it's, Yeah.

So, um, we finish up a couple of things before I, you've gone through some hardship yourself, uh, with cancer. How did all the things that you learned and now passing on to your, clients, or your patients, how has that helped you

going through such

[00:40:34] Emily: Uh, like, just without, without question, particularly the work around self-compassion. And particularly around, Working with some very overwhelming feelings. And I guess that's why I put it in there because I, you know, I don't sit atop a mountain having a perfect life, not having experienced any struggle.

You know, I'm perfectly human and normal as everybody else is. I do very strongly believe in these approaches um, they've been so instrumental [00:41:00] to my life, and they will continue to be for a very long time.

[00:41:03] Kristina: Yeah. So when you say self-compassion, what are some of the, the things that you do to to have self-compassion to yourself?

[00:41:12] Emily: Well, I mean, again, it's the kind of noticing this internal dialogue. And when we think about self-compassion, it's this act of care and nurturing. So it might be something like, for me, it's often kind of placing my hand on my heart able to slow down and really acknowledge like Emily having a hard time.

But I'm here for you. So it's kind of like acting as this kind of almost, carer and nurturer of the part of you that's really struggling and in pain. so that would be kind of very, kind of quick entry into um, work of self-compassion. Yeah.

[00:41:42] Kristina: Yeah. Yeah.

absolutely. That's very helpful. Thank you for sharing that. What's one question we can ask ourselves when we feel like we don't know what the next step is? Yeah.

[00:41:53] Emily: But that's a, that's a good question. I think the next thing is what do I need in this moment, in this next moment? What do I need to [00:42:00] do? I think often we think it's like the next big step, like what am I gonna do now? Actually for the moment. If big emotions are here, if it's very overwhelming, what is the next one thing I can do?

And that may be very simple. It may genuinely be, I'm gonna go outside and feel my feet on the grass.

[00:42:16] Kristina: Yeah.

[00:42:17] Emily: then we ask the question again. Okay, so what do I do now?

[00:42:20] Kristina: Yeah.

[00:42:20] Emily: I go and call someone, or I go and read a book or I go and do a meditation I have a bath. it's kind of this constant, like particularly when there are big overwhelming feelings here, what is the next one thing I can do, reasonably do so that I kind of get, again, this kind of sense of like movement and momentum and it's from that place that we can then make those bigger decisions and those bigger choices.

[00:42:43] Kristina: Yeah. Yeah. Again, just a little small, small things. And, and the thing is, because I'm a, I always encourage people to dream big because I think that's, it's such an exciting,

it feels

comfortable. It's exciting, and it really helped me in, in the early days to [00:43:00] kind of starting a business that I wanted to.

You know, I knew where I wanted to go, but it was felt like so far away and it made me feel really uncomfortable. But I loved having that kind of guiding light And I think it's, it's really great to have that in your personal life as well, where, where we wanna get to. And it doesn't mean that we have to get there today or

next year, but it's just having that kind of campus,

[00:43:22] Emily: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's wonderful. We can, we can dream big, but we start small and that's okay.

[00:43:28] Kristina: Yeah.

absolutely. And also I, I'm getting better at loving the uncomfortable feelings and because they're not always saying, well, this means that I'm doing something new and I'm growing and then I always think we'll see. And then it is, you know, we talking about public speaking 'cause I do a lot of speaking and, and the only way To get better at public

speaking

[00:43:50] Emily: Yeah. to

do more. Yeah,

[00:43:51] Kristina: and.

[00:43:51] Emily: I agree. It's tricky. It's tricky.

[00:43:55] Kristina: It is tricky.

because you can't, with that one, you can't go up on stage and then walk back.

But [00:44:00] you can definitely start with small

audiences or even practicing at home. So, just a couple of quick questions. One is, morning ritual to me is like. Foundation. I love my morning so much that I look forward to go to bed so I can get up early. 'cause I just love, I, it's so aligned with my values, what I do in my morning.

So I am curious, have you got a morning ritual? And if Yes, share it

[00:44:24] Emily: Well, well, with two young children, I'm not really sure if there's, there is at this point a great capacity, but I do, to be fair, I actually, I usually exercise. So in my ideal world, I would. wake up and do a meditation and breath work. And then do exercise, but with a time, with time limitations and like the busyness of the morning.

the most important probably thing is that I exercise for an hour, usually the morning. then I come back and, you know, with the help of my husband, we get the kids off to school. Um, So that is a very very, very helpful way for me to, to kind of move into the next parts of the day.

Yeah.[00:45:00]

[00:45:00] Kristina: Yeah. Yeah.

absolutely. It's such a good way of clearing your mind and also having that one hour of yourself as well.

[00:45:06] Emily: Oh, it's, yeah, it's, treasured. Really? Yeah.

[00:45:10] Kristina: Yeah.

Fantastic. So as you know, I'm a avid reader and allow book, so I am curious, is there one book that had a really big impact on your life or one book that completely changed your life?

[00:45:23] Emily: Yeah, I mean, I really couldn't go past Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. You know, I have his quote in, uh, in the book, a number of quotes I think actually. Uh, and it's very powerful read. It's a very important lesson on you. you know, how we find meaning and joy and purpose, whether again, like whether there is pain here or not, and to learn something from him who suffered so greatly.

Is, I think a huge guiding force, really. So certainly when I read that book, I was I mean it's obviously very on track too with the you know, him being a psychoanalyst. So [00:46:00] that was very, very helpful, but very meaningful to me. Yeah.

[00:46:03] Kristina: Yeah.

so the last question is, knowing what you know now, what kind of advice would you give to your younger self?

[00:46:10] Emily: this is gonna sound strange. I actually don't think I would give her any advice. I would just say that I'm here for you. Really? Yeah, because she needs to make those choices and they will unfold how they do. But that I will be there with you as you're doing then. Yeah.

[00:46:26] Kristina: Love that. thank you.

so much for taking your time. I know you have a very full schedule, so I'm so grateful and I'm gonna link the book to everyone and yeah, I'm excited to

[00:46:38] Emily: Oh,

[00:46:38] Kristina: uh, following your inspiring journey.

[00:46:40] Emily: oh, thank you so much, Kristina. It's been a real, real pleasure.

[00:46:43] Kristina: Thank Wasn't that just what you heart needed to hear today? I absolutely love this conversation with Dr. Emily and I could have spoken to her for hours, and I really hope you are walking away with a few [00:47:00] gentle but powerful tools to help you get unstuck. one small brave step at a time.

As always, don't forget there is no perfect way to do this. Live just your way and progress, not perfection is what brings your dreams to life. I cannot wait to read Emily's book Unstuck in September in our In my Book Club Grow as mentioned earlier, we will read it, we'll discuss it and implement what is relevant for each of us.

If you wanna join us, just head over to your dream. Love starts here.com. I'll link to it in show notes as well. book club is so amazing because we are a group of like-minded women. creating our dream life and have our own challenges and our own unstuck moments.

So it's absolutely perfect. If you feel like that is something for you. If you love this episode, please share it with a friend who might [00:48:00] need a little encouragement right now. And if you have a spare moment, please leave us a review so we can keep inspiring more dreamers around the world.

 find links to Dr. Emily's book Unstuck in our show notes, and also a link to our book Club Grow. And if you like to dive even deeper integrating your dream life, you can join us in the Dream Life Coaching program as well. I will link to that in the show notes as well.

As always, I'll be back on Monday with another Monday morning motivation episode. I'll see you then.

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